SPEAKER_01 0:26

Well, hello. Hello, D Pak. How you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hey, Eddie, not bad. How about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I'm doing good, doing good. I was looking forward to having that countdown uh since the last webinar I did. And it was it's very exciting for me for whatever reason. So happy to be here. Um well let's just give us uh a few minutes to the people that should be starting to join the session today. We are doing the sales and marketing tangle. We tried to do a soundtrack with tangle on the countdown, but that didn't work out. So the idea today is that Deepak and I are just gonna be talking about how to harmonize sales and marketing to get that machine well oiled and performing uh at top speed. So um, why don't we just start with Deepak? Uh why don't you introduce yourself shortly and dealfront as well as we get people joining the webinar as we speak?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Thanks, Eddie. So I'm Deepak. I'm currently heading the community initiative at Deal Front. Dealfront essentially gives sales and marketing teams the data, insights, and tools they need to win deals. Uh I'm often described as a black sheep in the marketing team simply because I come from a sales background. So I spent the last decade in uh heading the PLG sales motion at lead feeder, former to the merger and rebrand into deal front. And for the last year, I've spent uh time in marketing, getting to know the in and outs of the marketing world and working closer with our marketing team, launching our community and partnerships ecosystems initiative.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

That's great. So you've had a vantage point on uh on this dynamic that is unfortunately often um uh let's say hurtful or the dynamic is not as healthy as it should be uh for whatever the reasons which we'll cover today. So uh I'm I'm happy that you're here because I mean I I've known you just so that everybody knows, I've known DPAC offline on LinkedIn for the past four and a half years, and this is the first, this is the second time that we get together and see face to face see each other face to face. So it's it's I'm very happy, man, and grateful for for the relationship and and you know, and and for the nurturing that that you've given me over the past four and a half years, and definitely excited to have you here. Um pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Absolutely, man. Uh well if you don't know me yet, um Eddie. I am the head of growth marketing at Mouseville. We do behavior analytics, user behavior analytics, uh through various means, like session replay heat maps, um automatic friction detection, uh, conversion funnels, form analytics, and so much more. I'll keep it short because you're here to talk about sales and marketing. So without further ado, why don't we just jump into the program today? And the first thing that I feel we have to understand or at least assess is where does the disconnect happen? Where is the where is the harmony missing and at which stage you feel this is this this is becoming you know hurtful to the operation of a company? So in your experience, Deepak, how do you under how do you understand the disconnect between marketing and and sales?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I like to think that there's three major causes of misalignment. So the first one being lack of communication, the second one, unclear or misaligned goals, and the third one I'd say heavily revolves around the data being siloed. So if we kick it off with the first one, you know, sales and marketing teams, understandably, they have their own goals that they need to adhere to or work on on a day-to-day basis, and often they go without speaking to each other, which tends to naturally happen as a company grows and scales. And without that regular check-in or those shared platforms for communication, both teams can easily fall out of sync. And I think that's definitely one of the root causes of misalignment. Uh, the second one is simply around, you know, sales and marketing teams don't often share the same objectives, even though they're working towards that same end goal. They don't really understand each other's metrics. So they don't really, or they're not cognizant of the fact that they're working towards that same goal. They're too honed in on their own specific metrics. And that's where there's often that uh discord or misalignment when it comes to collaborating, right? They're all too honed in onto their own specific goals without realizing the bigger picture. Uh, and then I guess that's a nice segue into the data piece. They're using uh different data sources and platforms, uh, and often these either don't communicate well with each other or showcase different numbers, and that way data is often misinterpreted or interpreted in a different manner, uh, which leads to a misunderstanding of real needs or or or goals from your customers and prospects.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Right. And it makes sense, and and I I want to make this a session in which we can also offer some maybe some guidance as to how we've solved for this issues in the past. And I'm sure you you may have some some suggestions as well. Let's start with the lack of communication. I mean, you talked about the channels and the finding these things. What is the the what is this the setup like to avoid that lack of communication? Are we talking about weekly meetings, shared Slack channels? What are we talking about here? How how do you handle that in the in the past?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, ideally it starts off first uh meeting regularly, but as opposed to just meeting for the sake of meeting, make sure that the meetings that you are having are actually productive. And what I mean by that is you go into a meeting with a plan, a very specific agenda, uh, and and you're bringing in specific data into the meeting as well. Uh, and you really take the time to understand what the other team's going through and what they've already achieved, and what you've already achieved, and what you're bringing into the meeting as well. So, for instance, from a marketing perspective, when we meet with sales, we let them know these are the initiatives that we've launched. This is from our side, we can see these are the MQLs that we've been able to generate, and in turn the SQLs as well. And then we ask them for their feedback. So, this is what we did, these are the results that we're seeing. How about from your side? What is it that you've noticed? What's the quality of those leads been? So we showcase our results, but we ask sales for their feedback on the quality of those leads, for example. And then we jointly look at revenue numbers, forecasts, and I guess that active feedback loop has really helped us or has been instrumental to our success uh of our PLG motion uh so far. So I guess it starts off, yeah, with meeting meeting regularly first.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

So for me, for example, Deepak, the the challenge is to the challenge has been to get them with the program, right? If we are running, you know, this sales marketing, you know, in SaaS, they have to be working together. That's you know the success criteria for any SaaS out there that has been you know successful is that you know they got a good marketing and sales uh program together. But for me, the challenge has always been to get them, get sales into the program if I am the one running the program, which I usually am, being in growth and all. So, how do you how do you manage that convincing? What is the what is the thing that makes them this is a shiny new thing that I can get into and improve? Like, what is the trigger? Do you have a trigger or is there a hook that you use to get them involved in the operation actively?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

So, since I've been on the other side of the spectrum, I used to sit on the sales side, right? I think it's seeing that marketing really understands the day-to-day that our team is going through and what we're working on, and and having that empathy for the other side, I think that really goes a long way. Uh, and if I take a step back, I think again, it's it's understanding that both teams are working towards that common goal. We share the common set of objectives that we ideally should be aligning on, if uh with the help of leadership, of course. Uh, but we need to realize that the efforts that we're undertaking on both sides, they technically should be complementing rather than competitive. And I think that realization is what's been key. I understand what you're going through from a sales front. This is what I'm doing to help you, because I can understand the day-to-day challenges that you're encountering. So, for instance, back when I used to head the PLG sales motion for Deal Front's lead feeder product, we used to look at sales qualified leads and revenue from a sales point of view. And then both marketing and sales, we had our own internal metrics that we looked at, we monitored because they contributed to this overarching metric. Uh, for marketing, this was trial signups uh and MQLs. And for sales, it was always tied down to connected rates, uh closed rates, and revenue. And marketing knows the sales process. They knows exactly how the sales team follows up on those leads. They have an understanding of that, and I think sales really valued that, that they knew exactly you know how that was conducted.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Okay, finding that complicity, right? But you mentioned something that is interesting, that is one of the other pain points, right? Um, it's the unclear goals, which I think is also part of the culprit of having that that disconnect. This what am I looking at? What am I being measured on as a sales rep versus what am I being measured on as a marketer? It's completely different, right? So I think that part of that disjointment is that they don't we don't understand each other's metrics or how we're being measured, and how the work that we do together can impact those numbers if we were to go together, right? So I think that that ties up really well with the unclear goals that you just briefly mentioned now. Um and then you have a you mentioned something else, which is siloed data. Uh I I know the pain, but unfortunately, I believe that we live in a world that is rapidly changing, you know, mainly attribution and so on and so forth, and it's really hard to get to that source of truth, right? And in your previous experiences, how did you solve for this? Because I would imagine that marketing had, you know, their GA4, mixed panel, amplitude, with product maybe baked into that, and sales had it, CRM, hop spot, what have you, uh deal front, et cetera, et cetera. What is how do you solve for that single source of truth?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah, and to your point, you can have all the data in the world, but if you don't know how to get it to communicate with each other, it's it's just useless, right? So my advice to anyone listening is integrate as far and wide as you can. Look for tools that work seamlessly with each other so you can have a full, holistic, and complete overview of how you know your uh prospect data or your buyer journey affects certain approaches that you're conducting at every stage of the funnel, right? So connecting the tools that gather that data, uh, your sales and marketing team can get deeper insights at every stage of the funnel so they can approach those conversations with the right messaging at the right time. Uh and again, speaking of uh our case at Deal Front, again, referring to our lead feeder product, it integrates seamlessly with Salesforce. Lead feeder brings sales and marketing teams together, but we also integrate with any other CRM tool that you may use, the mainstream ones for sure. And that allows you then to bring in or connect your website visitors with the current deals that you're progressing in your sales pipeline. So sales can see exactly uh when a lead that they're working on is is taking a look at a blog post or has looked at the pricing page, and that type of uh data or insight can help sales people know when they stand a better chance at converting. Uh, so that intent data goes a long way, but then bringing in marketing tools into that, so you know, Google Analytics means that sales and marketing can have access to each other's data, allowing each team to work together in harmony.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

I think that you've you've hit the nail in the head unknowingly here because I wanted to bring in outside of having that single source of truth and not having siloed data, which you know is a struggle, it is it is a challenge, especially for scale-ups and and and companies that are that are growing. Um I I feel like today having a lot of data is not as important as having measurement on your uh touch points and your buyer journey, especially when it comes to marketing and sales. Uh, what I found is that the more you can share with sales as a marketer about how the deals, companies that you're targeting, your target list or whatever are progressing through the journey, the more trust and the more confidence they have in the process, right? So it's about a bit of a show and tell process that I found effective, you know, about getting them on the program is about actually showing them, like, guys, like look at this deal, it's engaged this many times and it's on Sales Navigator, it's here, it's here, it's here, it's here. They're prime for outreach, they're prime to be sold. Uh so go hunt, right? So I think that yeah, more than getting that single source of truth, to me, it seems that it feels more important that to have the buyer journey somehow mapped and measured. So do you would you agree with that? What has been your what's your feeling nowadays with with B2B buyer journeys what they are?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Well, uh, you know, we're living in an age where virtually every industry has so many players, there's so much to choose from, right? And there's that information overload. So people's people are taking are making more educated decisions when it comes to triggering purchases and not just going willy-nilly, going buying whatever they see at first. And they're they're making their research, they're they're conducting that research, they're taking their time to evaluate. And yeah, it's just become a lot more convoluted. They have so many different touch points, so many people that they can leverage, so many sources of intel that they can tap into to make that more of an educated decision before deciding whether or not to move with a provider. So, yeah, the buying journey has become more complex. There's a lot more elements to it, and I think that alignment brings more cohesiveness uh between both departments, but allows again salespeople to ultimately have the right ammo to target the right people whenever they're um whenever they have the right data at hand.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Right, right. Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. I mean, I think that now we're we're in a comfortable place to that we understand where that disconnect happens, but something that you brought up is you know the goals, right? And I also mentioned that the unclear goals is an issue because the lack of communication, you know, it's a let's say it's a soft skill that can be solved through various means of organization coordination, etc. etc. But the unclear goals is something that will actually make or break your effort. And as such, I wanted to ask you what goals are there unified goals for sales and marketing uh processes that you could share that with us about how you manage that in LeadFear slash deal front in the past?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I think this is something that starts at the very top. So it starts with leadership, kind of setting or developing a service-level agreement between sales and marketing. And this is where they kind of outline the specific roles, responsibilities, and expectations between both sales and marketing teams. And that way this helps ensure who's accountable and for for the contributions uh for what shared business goals. Uh, and essentially the key elements of a successful service level agreement could be something along the lines of you know, clearly defining a lead, what constitutes a marketing qualified lead and a sales qualified lead. So both teams are very clearly aligned on what essentially is what and the quality that comes after. And then the same goes with the handoff process for the leads, you know, who's going to be chasing or when is sales going to go after those leads at what point in time based on what criteria and what information they need for it, and then the response times so marketing can then align with sales. Like we we send you these leads that you know met this criteria, we expect them to be followed up on you know X intervals. So I guess it starts with defining those SLAs on the back of the bigger picture that they contribute towards. So, you know, um like I touched on earlier, looking at revenue growth as a whole, both teams should be aligned on driving revenue with marketing focused on generating those high-quality leads that sales can convert. Uh, looking at customer acquisition as well, how marketing's efforts in lead generation and nurturing should directly tie into sales targets to it to achieve this, and then customer retention, right? We don't want to just continue acquiring new customers if we're unable to keep them. So, how do we get involved in those strategies that help with retaining customers, uh, marketing taking ownership of the communication, and sales then focusing on delivering the right stories and upselling and cross-selling where possible?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So it does sound like um it does, and please correct me if I didn't get it right, but it does sound like sales outside of selling is also a channel of distribution for the messages and the right timing and the buyer's journey. Can you expand a little bit on that and and and maybe give an example of how that would look in you know, in practical terms, let's say I come into Mouslow or Deal Front and I sign up, right? Marketing has done its job in acquiring that customer. Let's assume that customer is qualified, comes from the right ICP, it has good product market fit, you know, is the right customer. They come in, they sign up. Um, how does how does and and and I know this could get very convoluted also because of the journeys? And but let's say that now that the customer is signed up and it's uh it becomes a sales qualified lead. How how's the dynamic between marketing and sales from that point on?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

So marketing, so again, we're we're uh you know drinking our own champagne here, we're using our own tool, which makes life a lot easier for us. Uh so we look at those sales qualified leads using LeadFeeder. Again, uh it then analyzes web visitors so we can see all those web visitors, we can see that they're qualified, we can see that they're in the funnel, because again, with our CRM integration, we can see at what stage of the funnel that they're at and who's been assigned that opportunity to work on it. And then we can trace their journey uh across the website, right? So we can even see what got them signed up in the first place, right? Was it a piece of content? What actually uh brought them, what was the source of acquisition, and what can we attribute that sign up to in the first place? So, right from there up until their journey throughout the website to that point of sign-up taking place. So being able to understand what really worked at converting a web visitor into a signup that gives us the marketing knowledge so we can go away and refine our campaigns if we need to, or fine-tune anything there. And from a sales perspective, we can then understand whether that meets, you know, if if we're able to trace that whole journey and we can see the different communication that sales rep is leveraging throughout the sales process, we can better understand what it takes to convert those opportunities. And conversely, that salesperson can leverage that web visitor data to be more targeted in their follow-up. Say, for instance, they've noticed that that web visitor downloading a piece, uh, a guidebook that we have on our CRM integrations and the capabilities of their CRM integrations, or looking at the sub page that we have on Salesforce. Uh, it could allude to that they're maybe using Salesforce as a CRM, or they're, you know, they're considering having that. So altogether, it it provides that sales rep with so much more insight into what that prospect is really after and what's of interest to them so they can personalize and make sure that that outreach is relevant enough to entice uh that prospect to respond to that messaging. Okay, so we have a full overview of the the whole sales cycle.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Good. So let me put on my my sales hat um and and let's say that's fine, but I can't like I can't scale that. What's your answer? Because I mean that's one of the issues, right? When you're looking At this carefully crafted outreach where it's relevant when you're looking at the whole journey, all of the touch points, getting to know the account, exactly what is it that they're looking for, and coming up with hypotheses on how to actually engage them. One of the things that I usually find, one of the blockers is that yeah, this is fine, but I can't scale it. Or yeah, this is fine, but if I do this for all of the leads I get, I won't get to my numbers, which speaks about that lack of alignment on clear goals and expectations, right? But usually when I when I am pushing for a program like this, the first thing I get is this is not scalable. So how how how do you manage that?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

I think what needs to come before that is both teams agreeing on a lead scoring model that prioritizes those leads based on fit and engagement, right? Like until you've done that, there's you don't know whether you can scale something or not. So firstly, establishing that, and then that will help you realize whether it is scalable or not.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Okay. Okay, so prioritizing these leads uh through a lead scoring system would be like first.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I would say even before the scoring, I'd even look at the definition of what is a lead, what are we gonna go after, what are we gonna leave uh for the product to do its own work, especially if it's uh you know a PLG motion. There's so much to where the product can assist you there, right? So it's defining that what is a lead that we want to pass over to our sales team and and what what does not fall into that bucket? And then if this is technically qualified, can we implement a model of lead scoring so we only have our sales that follow up on on leads that we actually know are worth their time?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Okay, okay, so the exercise to scale is more about actually having them focused on the right leads rather than having a fully automated system to deliver messages here and there. Okay, indeed. All right, all right, good, that's good. Um, so have you um when it's when it's about benchmarking on on these goals and and leads and MQLs, and can you walk us through a little bit of the process of aligning or getting together with marketing and then like who has a bigger say and a bigger voice in this conversation? Where it's like, okay, how many leads do we need? How many MQLs do we need? Who's actually driving that conversation? How do you get in agreement with marketing so that they are all pushing forward?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, I so we we sit together every month to assess, analyze, and review what has been achieved in the month prior, the results that marketing was able to deliver and what sales brought on, like I mentioned earlier. Uh, but the problem that we have is again, most organizations, from what I hear and I speak to, is you know, marketing looks at conversions in one platform, sales tracks conversions in another. They see drastically different numbers, they decide on very different strategies as a result on how they should approach the coming month. And that's where the misalignment uh lies. So it's bringing in back to we want to define one source of truth for that data. Uh and then once we've established that, for us, that's Tableau, that's the platform that we use. Uh, and by having that single source of data, we're not going back and forth reviewing numbers in different platforms. It helps us save time so we can spend more time looking at the actual data and then see what's specifically driving those changes. Uh and then looking at the day at the same data together helps us make the right decisions, you know, makes it easier to approach the right leads at the right time uh with that right messaging. But it's a question of reviewing this on a regular basis at regular intervals.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Right. Okay, that that makes sense. So yeah, I think that part of the part of the issues lies again in where we keep loaming back to the pain, right? And the pain points, lack of communication, again, soft skills, it can be solved by a myriad of things. It doesn't necessarily have to be um, you know, it's it's a program, it's meetings, it's a Slack channel, it's things that can help streamline communication, but unclear goals seem to be one of those recurring themes that comes back to us to haunt us and say, like, if sales is looking at one metric and marketing is looking at another, and they don't talk to each other, they're not related to each other, that's when the disconnect will happen because then marketing will say, Oh, I'm doing my job. It's sales that is not doing their job, and they'll say, No, we're doing our job, it's you that are not you're not doing the job. But so there it's it's like a triangle of success, right? That conjoint triangle of success, Silicon Valley reference. Yeah, uh, that you need that that you need that metric at the at the point where they all look to and and can optimize then the efforts together, because I think that's the the keyword here that they work together towards that goal. And in in terms of um, you know, we we talked about you to touch off on lightly on feedback loops, right? On how to get that feedback loop. Was it hard for you to get a feedback loop established with with sales and marketing? And how did that process come about? And how how is that moderated? Like you have the meeting, and then here are the campaigns. What can you tell us about the leads? What are you feeling from the calls? How does that on how does that unfold to get a good idea or grasp on whether or not the campaigns are working?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

So I think initially to kick this off, it wasn't hard because it had been established earlier on by leadership, right? Like this is the foundation had been set. So we had a very strong foundation to work on. It was nothing that had been imposed, but we naturally built this early on in the company. It was ingrained in our culture to work that way. And again, we were maybe very fortunate because our own product helps with sales and marketing alignment. So we never really had that issue. We were very openly discussing what's working on both sides. Sales understood the the marketing uh campaigns that marketing had set up that were moving the needle, and the marketing team was aware of how sales were approaching their uh conversations and opportunities and how they were working on them to the best of their capabilities. So we we both knew what each department was responsible, accountable for, and we understood how they worked on a day-to-day basis. We almost spoke each other's languages uh to a certain extent. So I think that open forum, open collaboration that had been set really helped a lot. Uh, and and yeah, there was very little, or maybe no, not very little, but generally we we wouldn't blame each other because we knew what each department was accountable for. And I think that because that had been established that way since the early early days, uh, we didn't have to worry about having to navigate the challenges that would arise as as a result of it.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah, no, that's um well, I'm I'm I'm happy for you. I mean, unfortunately, I've been not at Mouse, full disclosure. Part of toxic sales and marketing, which I believe that if you're in this space of B2B and you've had to deal with both teams, at some point you you must have gone through some toxic relationships between sales and marketing. And and you know, it's it's always about that accountability, right? It's about throwing shade, about you know, not being accountable for your own. But I think that part of what we're covering today is the fact that you need those clear goals and you need that synchrony. You need to be dancing at the same rhythm. And that comes from above, it comes from a cultural perspective of the company, which is important and something that we haven't touched upon, which I think we should, is about the role of stakeholders above, you know, all the let's say the powers that be, the role of the company culture, the role of the company and the leaders of the company in fostering this environment in which it's collaborative and it's about moving the needle forward together. Um, how has that been? I mean, you mentioned that you've been fortunate, I've been fortunate enough, and also that thankfully uh sales and marketing get along really, really well and we enjoy each other and work each other, but we're obviously always pushed to do more and always pushed to do better. And and I wonder what the role of the stakeholders in let's say in a toxic environment, what would be the role of the of the stakeholders to fix that? How do you think would be the best way to approach this? Because I I would assume that a lot of people uh joining the webinar today could be in this situation, right? In which, yeah, I know I can have to do all of those things, but at the same time I can't because you know, sales doesn't listen, or the sales director uh is not a good person, or just the company doesn't care. So maybe you have some insights as to how to navigate this challenge for those that are stuck in that place.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

I'm just I'm just giving it some thoughts. So the reason it worked well for us, I guess because it was very much rooted into the company's core values. One of our core values as an organization is to uh have open and transparent communication between departments. And I think our leadership team, and credit to them, they've lived by those words and they've always led with open and transparent communication. And this has really, again, set the tone for everybody else. In terms of going on about changing uh, you know, certain way of uh operating at a current company, I would say maybe leading with data. If you have the data at hand, if you can get data from RevOps to show you know that something's not right, whether that's from a sales or marketing perspective, it's it's very hard to go back and and question data. So may maybe going it or dealing with it through through that route can help if if you feel like everything's been against you so far. Uh yeah, I mean, every everybody's on for a data-driven approach, right? So leading with data potentially could help kickstart those conversations. Uh, but otherwise, yeah, it has to come generally from from from the top. Um, and yeah, I'm not sure what else I could say on the matter.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

No, that's that's that's very good advice, actually, because I mean it's some numbers are contestable. Like it's uh these are the numbers, this is this is what they're telling, you know, and and especially when it comes to sales and marketing, there's a lot of ego, there's a lot of emotions involved in the process, right? So I think that I've I've and I agree with you. I think data is one of the the biggest uh katanas you can bring into a conversation when you're unfortunately stuck in this space because it is unfortunate, it is super stressful and terrible for both parties to be involved in that. But I think that you've hit the nail in the head again, Deepak, on on yeah, just cut the data. And I think that will potentially solve some of the issues uh and get you into the in the right track. So that's that's good, which actually touches up on leveraging data and technology now, which is the other topic for for the webinar. Um we we talked about how data can diffuse some of that challenges and toxic situations between um sales and marketing. So you know, we talked about the importance of having that centralized data platform for sharing insight. In your case, it's Tableau. And I'm assuming that it feeds from multiple sources, right, through APIs, and you have a unified dashboard, and that is what you look at when you're having these meetings uh together with marketing, right? Marketing and sales.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Correct. That's right. Yes, we have a uh central report and uh a dashboard that both teams would look at during that meeting.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Good. And just uh just as an example, because a lot of uh what I see and what I experience today, uh I think automation is killing the game. Um, in my experience, I mean, I mean, I'm sure you've gotten enough messages and and pitch slaps, they call it nowadays. Please stop doing it. If you're here and you're doing it, please stop. It it's it doesn't work, people don't like it. Nobody wants to get pitch slapped. But um, I wonder what is the role of automation in this process? How is automation involved and at what level in order to make this communication between sales and marketing uh more like tango and less than crumping?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

So, I mean, automation can be we we could see from two angles, right? On one hand, from a sales perspective, like leveraging it from out from an outreach point of view, you just need to be very mindful with how you go on about it. Like you well put it, right? There's so much does that that's going around at the moment, but people blasting emails and messages left, right, and center that that doesn't work. Uh, and funny enough, our head of business development is running a uh a master class on prospecting with with with respect in a week's time, which which is a very interesting one to tune into for anyone who's in sales. Um so I think yeah, people should be very mindful and cautious with how they approach leveraging automation in sales. From marketing, if you can automate the enrichment of leads or providing your sales team with more ammo. And and what I mean, what I mean by ammo is by giving them more insights on the accounts that they're targeting, by all means, leverage automation so they can have that messaging at the right time as they're conducting their outreach. So, yes, I'm all for using automation in marketing to deliver sales, those insights that they need for their outreaches and campaigns, but from a sales perspective, they should be very careful and mindful as to how they leverage automation when it comes to conducting those outreaches.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Good. And you touch up on something that it just kind of you know gave me a thought. I I've seen how many, I've seen many SaaS struggling with messaging, especially when it comes to outreach. Um, and it it does sound like the sales team at Dealfront is essentially you know running the game when it comes to outreach messaging, but is marketing evolved at any point at vetting that message or giving feedback, or is that part of the process of synchrony at dealfront or of past experiences?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yes, the marketing team would would align to make sure that you know however the sales team is communicating our value prop, they're using they're doing so in in the right manner. So there is there is that active feedback loop there, yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

That's that's it would they wouldn't necessarily dictate what what each and every sales rep sends, and they're not checking actively every single email, but for the most part, they've defined what the value prop and and in in the tone of which it should be expressed and how it should be done so to maintain that level of uh professionality and also making sure that our brand is perceived in the way that we want it to, in line with our unique selling point. So that exercise has happened, but they wouldn't actively vet and dictate and control what our sales team is sending.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah, no, I I get you, but it's just for a moment, it felt like it was something that that sales was managing. And I was curious because at least for us in Mouseflow, um, we have this recurring meetings in which team shout out to Ashley, Taylor, and everybody on the sales team at Mouseflow. They come back to us in marketing and say, okay, like this is the campaign, this was the audience, this was the message, this is what we see, especially for me in growth is important to see the numbers of how the message is perceived, open rights, et cetera, et cetera. And we iterate on top of that. And sometimes we make it a discussion about how can we improve this message, how can we go through you know, um, several criteria to develop the message, and and obviously not go and be hovering over them uh on each single message. So, but I was just curious to to hear what it was like on the off front. So thank you for sharing that. Um, when it comes to um you you also mentioned something that at least was new to me um a while back, service level agreement between departments. Um, and maybe it's common for large enterprises. I mean, I haven't been lucky enough to yet to work on a large enterprise with scale as big to have service level agreements with departments, but I wonder what that looks like. Is that uh is that literally a contract between departments?

SPEAKER_00 38:56

I wouldn't say it's a contract per se. It's more like a highlight of expectations, or this is this is technically how we foresee this happening. And I think it was easier for us to do when we were first, you know, when we were new with the lead feeder product back in the day, we had a very small sales team and a very small marketing team. So it's very easy to define and outline the responsibilities and and you know who's going go who's going to go after these leads. Is it going to be product marketing? Are we going to feed these through the sales team and define the criteria that came with that? So it was, I wouldn't say an official contract or so. It was more of an informal agreement between the departments that this makes sense because it's backed by data. This is what we're seeing. And, you know, for instance, when we're defining what is a lead or our lead scoring model uh for our internal use case, this is what we decided upon based on the data points that we had from both product and marketing.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Okay, okay, I see what you mean. Okay. All right. I think that I mean, I think that covers most of the topics that we wanted to cover today. Um Deepak, again, thank you so much, man, for for all the insights and all the nurturing again over this four and a half years. I'm I'm so happy that that we got to do this together. It was a long overdue. I wonder if you have any closing remarks or any any advice. I I don't see we have any questions um today, but now would be the time to ask them uh for DPAC or myself. But if you could maybe then summarize a little bit of the key elements that you think are uh of importance in getting that uh uh harmony of tango between sales and marketing.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

I think uh solving that misalignment between sales and marketing starts at the very top, but something you can do as an individual in terms of helping make that happen or helping facilitate that is work on defining shared goals and KPIs with your leaders. Try and meet regularly, take that initiative to speak to your sales team, really understand their day-to-day, what they go through, their nitty-gritty of their of their approach, in how they contact their leads, how they follow up, what their sales cycle looks like. Like really take real interest in what they do. Uh, look for establishing that single source of truth for your for data, so you're not constantly having uh the to jump on various platforms and then request data from other individuals. Like, see if you can bring that all in one cohesive platform and then ultimately decide on a communication channel as well. Uh, is that gonna be through Slack? Is that gonna be, you know, we're gonna do video calls, like having that set up as well. So for instance, at Dealfront, we have the different uh different marketing channels as well. There are some marketing channels where we have certain salespeople there, others are exclusively for marketing. Uh, and that way we make sure that the right people are communicated of the right initiatives that they should be aware of. Um, so agree on that communication channel and then ultimately just make sure all your tools are working in harmony with each other. And I think that's that summarizes it all.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Thank you, Deepak. If I could just uh I could you mention some of the things that's worked for me to get this harmony going at Mouslow, one of them uh has been embedding into the team. Um, I am constantly on sales calls when I can. I do demos myself, I go through the process of selling the tool myself so that I know exactly what their process is like. So I would advise you that if you don't feel comfortable doing demos in the case of SaaS or selling yourself your product, listen to as many calls as you can, participate in meetings when they're holding meetings about strategy. Try to show interest, that's key. Make it worth your time because salespeople are on a time clock, as most of us are, but salespeople especially. So show interest, show that you care, and they'll appreciate it. The second thing about streamlining some of the communication aspect is that I often find I find it hard sometimes to get across with text and writing on a Slack message. So, what I've done is record short uh Loom videos and send updates that way about how the campaigns are going. And then obviously taking initiative if you're in marketing to call the meetings to see how the campaigns are going, if you see something wrong, raise your hand, go talk to the sales team and make sure you build report. That's super important. Um, then the last thing I wanted to mention that if you are stuck in a toxic dynamic between sales and marketing and you can't get these things across, I think one of the biggest insights is to use data to cut through the clutter and to make sure that it's evidence they they can't go against it. Whether that's from Google Analytics.blow Mouse Low Deal from Leech Feeder, et cetera. If you're backed up with data, you were gonna you're gonna have an easier time getting your point across, whether you're in sales or marketing. So that would be for me the last piece of advice before we close the session. Again, oh, it looks like we have one quick question here before we go from Damaris. Do you have any suggestions on how to align marketing and sales goals? Should both have a revenue goal.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

I think I touched on this earlier. I think both teams should be aligned on driving revenue. So marketing, like I said, you know, should be focusing on generating the high-quality leads, having established what a high quality lead means, that ultimately sales can convert. So yes, there should be an alignment that we're working towards revenue growth.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Absolutely. And I would agree with that, Deepak. The way we do it is in marketing, we are about revenue. We're not just about leads or MQLs. We're always looking at the end of the funnel. So that is quite important to have in your operation, ingrained in your operation as part of the culture of your marketing department or sales department, is that revenue is the ultimate goal. So both teams should be looking at revenue as they go through the process. Now, whether they need, in the case of marketing, it's really hard sometimes to showcase how much you've influenced a deal. So it would be, I would, I would say, Damaris, it would be a little unfair to say marketing should have a revenue goal. But um fortunately enough, we can see that there are new technologies that are helping us along the way to see how much the marketing operation is influencing deals. But sales would ultimately be the last touch point. So obviously, sales will be the one converting if it is, unless it's self-served product, which is another thing. But I would say, in part, you have to be very careful about being mindful of how much control each of the departments have over revenue and allocate the responsibility or the goal accordingly so that it makes sense and you're not deflating any other two teams. I know those discussions, that's why I'm asking. Yeah, I know we've all been there. I think it's it's part of the game. I don't know if you're a marketer or a sales per uh salesperson, Damari. So maybe if you can share that with us, uh maybe DPAC and myself can take it further. Uh let's see if that she's still tuned in. But anyway, in the case of marketing, uh absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, I think that goes back to what DPAC is saying, that service level agreement, right? Making sure that the definition of what is a lead and MQL and SQL on opportunity and a customer is agreed upon so that you don't have that problem, you know. If you're more in marketing, you're in my team, although DPAC has, you know, cuts across both ways, which is why it's great having him here. But I'll speak for myself. To me, right now has been about changing a little bit of the lead gen culture that we've had at the company, more towards a demand gen culture, more towards an influenced culture because of the recent changes in attribution. It's very hard. Our numbers have been changed drastically over the past few months because of these changes in attribution. And as such, I have to start speaking a different language so that the impact of marketing is not lost in the clutter. Now, all of a sudden, oh, direct traffic picked up. It's 80%, and now Google, it's uh paid ads is at 20%, you know, marketing's not doing a good job. No, it's just that the attribution is shifting, the we're still influencing those deals. So I think that we will we're in the you know, in the beginning of a of an evolution, uh evolutionary process in which marketing now has to showcase the impact through influencing deals, which again needs to be measured throughout the buyer journey. So this is my, I mean, I don't think and Deepak, maybe you can extend a little bit here, but I don't think there is a like a recipe book or a or a blueprint for this. All marketers, all salespeople are struggling with this new reality. And the best thing I can tell you, Damares, and everybody listening is make sure you're measuring and make sure you can look into you know tools like Fibrill, Dream Data, or other attribution tools that are showcasing this influence and the touch points of marketing throughout the sales process, which says, okay, they started here, they visited the site here. Um, you know, use intent data uh from you know Enrich and this type of platforms to showcase whether they're in market and that you're funneling to the right customers the spend that you have available. So maybe you have something to add, Deepak, here.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

I think you put it very well. I think the attribution is a huge question mark, right? Like we get that asked a lot. What is the the actual benefit or value of this blog post? And if you can go you know through something like Dream Data and be able to exactly showcase, well, this prospect read this blog post at this given point, which implored them to want to take that demo from that sales rep, which ultimately led to closed one revenue. That's what's gonna help you. Uh so yeah, attribution software is definitely something that should be looked into. But like you said, we're in the middle of a big shift that's taking place. And as marketers, we need to adapt with the times, just like salespeople need to be constantly up changing their approaches. We need to do the same ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Exactly. All right, so I think that was a good question, Damaris. Thank you so much. I don't see any more questions popping up, so I think that I think this is it for the webinar today. Park, again, thanks so much, man, for being here and for being a buddy. Uh I look forward to doing more of this with you in the future. And uh thanks again for joining.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Anytime, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me, Eddie, and we shall speak soon.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Thanks. Take care, everybody. Bye bye. Bye.